Go homepage(回首页) Upload pictures (上传图片) Write articles (发文字帖)
The author:(作者)qqpublished in(发表于) 2013/11/23 17:26:48 Zhu Weiqun and Switzerland reporter on the contacts with the Dalai Lama to discuss issues such as
On October 18, 2013, Zhu Weiqun, Director of the ethnic and religious Committee of the CPPCC in Switzerland Bern, with the new Zurich newspaper reporter bite·weisite for breakfast, and on China's ethnic, religious and Central Government and the Dalai Lama's private representatives discuss problems answering a reporter's question. Main contents are as follows.
Reporter: as far as I know, when you accepted an interview with the China News weekly said, you believe that Communists should not have religious beliefs, may I ask you if opponents of religion?
Zhu Weiqun: China's history and the history of Europe is different, for a very long time in history, Christianity in Europe is relatively large, sweeps, history of Central Asian countries in West Asia but also a comparative religion was Islam. Due to the history of the Chinese Government's attitude toward religious tolerance, has formed five major religions co-exist. China's 1.3 billion people, religious people in general have more than 100 million more, most people are not religious. During the revolutionary war was during the construction period, the Chinese Communist Party to career success, will have to unite more than 100 million religious believers. Instead of uniting them is essential for policy on freedom of religious belief. Implementation of this policy, not only because of what we need, and also because of the Communist Party of China in theory believes that religion is a long-term phenomenon of human society, China's social stability, to unite the whole people to a goal up, religious policies must be in line with the religious rule of this society.
Reporter: so what is this?
Zhu Weiqun: is that developed countries, make people's life better. People recognize this objective, which goes beyond the differences of religion.
Reporter: religion is not achieving this goal or a threat?
Zhu Weiqun: we never saw religion as obstacles or threats to achieve that goal. Of course, from the ideological point of view, an expression of religion as an idealistic world view, with our unwavering commitment to the materialist world view is not the same, but the vast number of religious believers for the developed countries, this goal well people live, is highly consistent with us, there is no contradiction. After the Chinese Communist Party was founded in 1921, has always implemented the policy of freedom of religious belief has never changed, but sometimes we have bad, such as the "cultural revolution" period. But the "cultural revolution" ended, we get back to fully implement the policy of freedom of religious belief. Marxism is the theoretical basis of the Chinese Communist Party, as a party member, deserved to adhere to the materialistic world view, adhere to atheism. I adhere to the Communist Party can't religion does not prevent me to resolutely implement the party's policy on freedom of religious belief.
Reporter: do you think that party members should adhere to atheism?
Zhu Weiqun: Yes, because our Constitution is written clearly, our guiding ideology of Marxism, and Marxist theory is based on dialectical materialism and historical materialism, materialism and theism is two different views of the world. When a person to join the Communist Party, and shows that he admits his worldview is materialism, rather than theism, it is very clear and simple thing.
Reporter: China now has many party members are not atheists, because some people have participated in Falun Gong, some in secret donations to the temple, that should change?
Zhu Weiqun: participation in Falun Gong's illegal behavior, because Falun Gong is not a religion, it is a breach of an illegal organization. Some party members participated in a number of religious activities, if it is a belief, I do not think this is in line with the Constitution, first through education, asking them to correct, and abide by the party Constitution. If there are people from the party's ideological base, still adhere to the religion, so he has to go when a religious, will not necessarily be party members, it is also a manifestation of the freedom of religion.
I would also like to say a mean, I engaged in religious work, party members not to believe that not only will not adversely affect the work and is very beneficial. There are five major religions in China, no matter what religion I am, four other religious doubts for me. Just because I don't believe in, which is why we are assured to me, that I can be fair to the party's religious policies.
Reporter: means you are neutral?
Zhu Weiqun: not neutral between materialism and idealism, between religions, I am neutral.
Reporter: you are also engaged in ethnic studies, I read your article, which referred to the problem of ethnic integration. We see in the world, almost no examples of successful integration of ethnic minorities. There are so many ethnic minorities in China, forcing these minorities integration as one people, to succeed? My view is that if these minorities within the legal framework of their own choice?
Zhu Weiqun: you talk about minority integration as a nation cannot be compelled, as well as ethnic minorities can have their own choice, within the limits of the law, is correct, in fact, is the way we do. In the context of common law, we, the peoples ' rights are equal, each nation develop its own economy, culture, education, language, as well as the activities of their full rights. I just think that in today's complex international situation, with all that heavy domestic development tasks, increase between our Nations more commonality and consistency, rather than human differences, and the expansion of the nation. As an example, we stand for all ethnic groups have the freedom to use and develop their own language and writing, this is our law. At the same time, we live in a country, it would do well to have a language for everyone to facilitate exchanges among peoples, making life easier, which is the national language and character, strengthening national promotion, use of common languages, are legal in our country. Then, for example, against Han people to Tibet, the Dalai Lama, which changed the form of Tibetan. Second generation of Chinese leader Deng Xiaoping said that Tibet was, is not enough to rely solely on the 2 million Tibetan people to build, Han Chinese to help them build it doesn't hurt. We are of course in favour of Deng Xiaoping, against the Dalai Lama. The Dalai Lama even offered to drive out all Han Chinese working in Tibet. If the Dalai Lama says that, for us, it is a multi-ethnic country, is undoubtedly a huge disaster.
Reporter: on this issue, I have a different opinion. The paper you mentioned, I've ever read, and saw your response at a press conference, this document is in my bag. His idea is not to people from Tibet of Han Chinese and other ethnic ingredients out, his claim is not mass immigration to Tibet in the future.
Zhu Weiqun: I refers to 1987 by the Dalai Lama in the United States Congress to spread on the "Tibet issue" five-point plan, including a quote, I can read it to you: "this ethnic Tibetans wishing to seek survival, must be to stop the population transfer and migration into Tibet of Han to return to China. "There is no doubt that this sentence is to be driven out into Tibet of Han Chinese.
Reporter: memorandum of the last round of negotiations was in 2008!
Zhu Weiqun: I know what you are referring to the Dalai Lama in 2008 gave us a talk on the Tibetans, "a high degree of autonomy" explanation. In this memorandum, the Dalai Lama did not withdraw his "five-point proposal" on driving in the Han Chinese, is that he said made a repudiation.
Reporter: he there is a saying: our aim is not the expulsion of those who settled in Tibet for a long time, not out of these people, is to reduce the mass of the Tibetan immigrants.
Zhu Weiqun: Please note that no matter what version, the Dalai Lama has never recovered "to make immigration into Tibet of Han Chinese to go back to China" this sentence. Regardless of the past or now, Tibet is part of China's territory, Chinese citizens have the right to freely move, living on their own land, it is civilized, democratic country is bound to ask, the Dalai Lama, Tibet had no right to deprive Chinese citizens rights.
Reporter: so, every Chinese can do to settle in Hong Kong?
Zhu Weiqun: as we all know, Hong Kong is a special administrative region of China under "one country, two systems", and its population in the "one country, two systems" arrangement under the framework, there's a big difference with the situation in Tibet. Under the conditions of a market economy, people from other provinces to Tibet to help build, to make a living, legitimate, there is no reason to "national identity" as the standard limits. Ethnic structure of the population of Tibet is not actually a big difference now Tibetan 90% per cent of the total population. Tibet's economic and social development, people can quickly improve, not the result of self-imposed isolation of Tibet, but people help each other and communicate the results.
Reporter: I have had personal contacts with the Tibetan side, but also negotiate with your representative, also met the Dalai Lama, I do not agree with all his views, such as "Grand Tibet area" point of view. But I don't see him from his memo was a separatist. You in the subsequent press conference, criticized the Dalai Lama is a separatist, I am very surprised that the Central Government of China and Tibet in the difference in attitude is so big, as much as two of the world.
Zhu Weiqun: Let me begin by correcting one word for you: you say the Dalai Lama as "Tibet", while the Dalai Lama is not "Tibet", representative of Tibet under the leadership of the Central Government of China's Tibet Autonomous regional people's Government, and the Dalai clique is a group of treason. The Dalai Lama in the United States Congress, "five-point plan" and France in Strasbourg, "seven-point new suggestions", I, like you, careful studies have been conducted, if our point by point rebuttal, this whole discussion is rather lengthy. You emphasize the Dalai does not attempt to split, I refer only to some of his recent remarks. October 16, 2010, the Dalai Lama accepted Canada said in a media interview that "many Tibetans now have the view: all the Tibetan people want independence, only I don't want independence. Of course, if you ask me, want to be independent or stay in China? Answer is obvious, we want to be independent. " On March 25, 2012, news coverage of the Dalai Lama, the Dalai Lama and the so-called "democratic movement" elements said that when he was talking, "historically have a right to fight for independence in Tibet, which is a right, I'm talking about a middle way in the face of this, the way to solve this dilemma, Tibetan independence he was based and make sense". Of 2011, India times, the Dalai Lama in India speak even advocated that "India has more reason than China claimed sovereignty over Tibet" and such, he told many times. On June 9, 2011, the puppet government of the Dalai group leader luosangsungen India magazine said of the dialogue, "view of Tibetan independence and autonomy are not contradictory, from the perspective of dialectical, Tibetan independence is the principle objectives, autonomy is a realistic goal." The Dalai Lama and the luosangsungen "a middle way" and "Tibet independence," says very clearly the relationship between. My times up the criticism in the press, they did not make any explanation. Comments like this, I can name a lot. Especially luosangsungen said "Tibet independence" is the principle objective, "autonomy" is the objective reality, the Dalai Lama spoke so clearly, very bad politically, destructive to the Dalai Lama is too large. , Luosangsungen the words of the Dalai Lama, how can the Central Government to build trust? I'll tell a related issue, between us and the private representatives of the Dalai Lama 10 10 contacts, why not contact? Luosangsungen said the next contact to discuss is "Government in exile" between the Chinese Government and talk about. The Dalai Lama has said on many occasions, interview by luosangsungen to be responsible for the future, which means that the Chinese Central Government and the separatist puppet government interview. The essence of the problem is that the Dalai Lama and luosangsungen tried to make a de facto recognition of the false from the very beginning we interview the legitimacy of the Government. Central Government can't promise such conditions, so the interview simply could not be made.
Reporter: and I know of your representative, they talk is meaningless because of the current circumstances negotiations, they never said to the Tibetan "Government in exile" of identity negotiation. I know you asked to negotiate each other to write a report about their demands, they wrote. You are not ready to accept the other's viewpoint, why should we negotiate with him?
Zhu Weiqun: first question, you said "negotiators" should be the nail luodi, the gentleman really didn't say he represents the "Government in exile" and talk to me, he said he represented the Dalai Lama himself, and because of this, we will be able to go on. But the Dalai clique in power now luosangsungen has repeatedly said the next interview is "Government in exile" and the talks on China's Central Government, which completely destroyed the basis of interview. As far as I know, Mr Gyari luodi Lausanne Hikone attitude is really not satisfactory. While Gyari luodi and I agree, but I have great respect for him, he was luosangsungen from the interview representative position away. The second issue, the previous stage multiple times, we talk with private representatives of the Dalai Lama, because in the history of the Dalai Lama has been doing positive things for the country, I am referring to the peaceful liberation of Tibet, signed 17 agreements, then he was local political decision makers. The Dalai Lama's religious identity is the Central Government of China decided, I talked to his personal representative, and indeed respect for historical tradition. From the last century began reform and opening up, China's Central Government will send someone to build contacts with the Dalai Lama, invited him to send people asked many times, to visit Tibet. We have only one goal, and he stopped separatist activities and return to the correct position of the patriotic, not with him to discuss what "Tibet problem".
Reporter: he had long abandoned the separatist activities.
Zhu Weiqun: no, that's your point of view. They said, "a middle way" is basically "independence of Tibet". What I have just said okay. Call asking them to write material, the fact is that I have repeated the same day luodi as saying: these requirements you have, the central authorities will not talk to you; but if you're interested in changing positions, you can be expressed clearly so that we can determine whether you in the middle of the cover. Meaning is clear: first, I don't talk to you about "Tibet's political status" or something like that and, second, may I see you changed its position or not. Finally we got something, they had not changed its position.
Reporter: could you imagine: both sides should respect each other's different points of view. "Hide" the representatives so that, if your intent is only to check whether the other person views in common with you, such negotiations were pointless.
Zhu Weiqun: we don't call "negotiations", called "contacts to discuss". This involves the nature of the interview questions. For example, I talked to you, our relationship is equal, but the Dalai clique is in 1959 after a failed armed rebellion, fled abroad, announced the establishment of "independent State of Tibet", their false Constitution, bad government, bad Assembly, he was a rebel group, the Central Government cannot talk with him in an equal position. 1964 positions adopted at the plenary meeting of the State Council concerning the withdrawal the Dalai Lama decided that the nature of the problems referred to the Dalai Lama: Dalai Lama treason counterrevolutionary armed rebellion launched in 1959, after fled abroad, organizing puppet government in exile, pseudo enacted Constitution, which proves that, he would have cut oneself off from the motherland and the people. So our interview, aim to he admit his mistake and correct his mistakes, seek understanding of the Central Government and all the people, not with him on the idea of splitting the motherland for equality of "negotiations", no such relationship exists. Me and Mr Gyari luodi equal in individuals, but at the time of interview, I, as the Central Government personnel, who, as the Dalai Lama's private representatives, I can only take a very tough line towards.
Reporters: that was said between the two of you talk is meaningless, nor to talk of the future.
Zhu Weiqun: I don't think it's pointless. Is all our requirements through their central vision and sent directly to the Dalai Lama.
Reporter: this is one way.
Zhu Weiqun: of course, I would also like to hear what the Central criticism of the Dalai Lama's attitude change is also not correct. Contacts discussions we did not shut the door, but the principle is still the principle. Some foreign friends did not want to understand, the crux lies did not understand what is the nature of our struggle and the Dalai Lama group. Get this straightened out, other issues will understand.
Reporter: I'm trying to understand the nature of the talks, I am also aware of attitudes on both sides, if that is the case, negotiations were fruitless. I think the Dalai Lama is a more reasonable negotiating partner, if he was gone for a day, I think the negotiations will be more difficult, this is not in China's interest.
Zhu Weiqun: the struggle against the Dalai clique is that we achieved an important condition for development and improvement of people's livelihood in Tibet, because there is such a group of separatist activities in foreign countries is bound to interfere with us, so we will keep a close eye on this group. We hope that in his lifetime, he made the right choice, out from separatist positions, but if he insists on separatist positions, we can do nothing. A basic fact is that Tibet's future and destiny lies in the hands of the entire Chinese people, including the Tibetan people, not lies in the hands of the Dalai clique gang. I hope the Dalai Lama a long life, wanted him to live to his target of 113 years old. If he's "go" after some people tried to use means of violence and terror and we fight, big deal, history has proved that they have never been won. And in the context of today's world, anyone who engage in violence and terrorism, would be tantamount to political suicide.
Thank you so listen to me so much today, I seen so far foreign journalists, which is your master the material on this issue is one of the most. The last time I give you a little information. You may see this map, this is 2010 Second Edition of the autobiography of the Dalai Lama in exile at home with photos. Do you think any of the Chinese look at the map, do a shine to the Dalai Lama?
Reporter: "Grand Tibet area" me and you are in agreement on this point, and I think they were asking for too much.
Zhu Weiqun: Please note, he is not only demanded by "Grand Tibet area", he marked China's Xinjiang in the map "East Turkey Stan" mark for a single State in Inner Mongolia and Northeast provinces we labelled "Manchukuo", and so on.
Reporter: it's not real.
2013年10月18日，全国政协民族和宗教委员会主任朱维群在瑞士伯尔尼同《新苏黎世报》记者比特·韦斯特共进早餐，并就中国的民族、宗教工作及中央与达赖喇嘛私人代表接触商谈问题回答了记者提问。主要内容如下。
记者：据我所知，您在接受《中国新闻周刊》访谈时说到，您认为共产党员不应该信仰宗教，请问您本人是不是宗教的反对者？
朱维群：中国的历史和欧洲的历史不太一样，在历史上很长一段时间里，欧洲基督宗教比较大，占绝对优势，西亚中亚国家历史上也是一种宗教比较大，就是伊斯兰教。由于历史上中国政府对宗教就采取宽容的态度，所以形成了五大宗教并存的局面。在我国13亿人口中，信教的群众大体有1亿多，大多数人不信教。无论在革命战争时期还是在建设时期，中国共产党要取得事业的成功，都必须要把这1亿多信教群众团结起来。而要把他们团结起来，必须实行宗教信仰自由政策。实行这一政策，不仅是因为我们事业的需要，也因为中国共产党从理论上认为，宗教是人类社会的一种长期现象，中国社会要稳定，要把所有的人都凝聚到一个目标上来，宗教政策就必须符合宗教这种社会现象的内在规律。
记者：那么这个目标是什么？
朱维群：就是把国家发展起来，把老百姓的生活搞得更好。全中国人民都认可这个目标，它超越了宗教信仰问题上的分歧。
记者：宗教是不是实现这个目标的障碍或者威胁？
朱维群：我们从来没有把宗教视为实现这个目标的障碍或者威胁。当然，从意识形态上来说，宗教作为唯心主义世界观的一种表现，同我们所坚持的唯物主义世界观是不一样的，但广大宗教信徒对于把国家发展起来、把人民生活搞好这个目标，同我们是高度一致的，是不矛盾的。中国共产党从1921年成立以后，始终实行宗教信仰自由的政策，从未改变过，只是有的时候我们实行得不好，比如像“文化大革命”期间。但“文革”结束后，我们马上回到贯彻实行宗教信仰自由的政策上来。中国共产党的理论基础是马克思主义，我作为一个党员，理所应当坚持唯物主义世界观，坚持无神论。我坚持共产党员不能信仰宗教并不妨碍我坚决贯彻执行党的宗教信仰自由政策。
记者：那您是不是认为党员都应坚持无神论呢？
朱维群：是的，因为我们的党章写得很清楚，我们的指导思想是马克思主义，而马克思主义的理论基础是辩证唯物主义和历史唯物主义，而唯物主义和有神论显然是两个不同的世界观。当一个人加入共产党时，就表明了他承认他的世界观是唯物主义，而不是有神论，这是非常清楚、简单的事情。
记者：中国现在有许多党员不是无神论者，因为有些人参加了法轮功，有些人偷偷地向庙宇捐款，这种状况是否应改变？
朱维群：参加法轮功是违法的行为，因为法轮功不是宗教，而是破坏社会的非法组织。有些党员参加了一些宗教活动，如果是出于信仰原因，我认为这是不符合党章的行为，首先应通过思想教育，请他们改正，遵守党章。如果有的人背离党的思想基础，仍坚持信仰宗教，那么他尽管去当一名宗教徒好了，就未必再当党员了，这也是宗教信仰自由的一种体现。
我还想再讲一个意思，我长期从事宗教工作，感到共产党员不信仰宗教，不仅不会对工作产生不利影响，而且是非常有利的。因为中国有五大宗教，不论我信哪个宗教，其他四种宗教就会对我产生疑虑。正因为我不信教，所以大家对我都放心，认为我可以公正地执行党的宗教政策。
记者：就是说您是中立的？
朱维群：不是在唯物主义和唯心主义之间中立，而是在各宗教之间，我是中立的。
记者：您也是从事民族问题研究的，我曾读过您的一篇文章，其中提到了少数民族融合的问题。在世界范围内我们看到，少数民族的融合几乎没有成功的例子。中国有这么多的少数民族，强迫这些少数民族融合为一个民族，能够成功吗？我的看法是，能不能让这些少数民族在法律的范围内有他们自己的选择？
朱维群：您谈到不能强迫少数民族融合为一个民族以及少数民族在法律范围内应可以有自己的选择，是正确的，其实我们就是这样做的。在共同的法律范围内，我们各民族的权利是平等的，每个民族都有发展自己经济、文化、教育、文字以及各项活动的充分的权利。我只是认为，在今天这样复杂的国际形势下，在国内发展任务这么繁重的情况下，我们各民族之间要更多地增加共同性和一致性，而不要人为扩大民族之间的差异性。举一个例子，我们主张各民族拥有使用和发展本民族语言文字的自由，这是我们法律规定的。同时，我们在一个国家里生活，最好还是有一种大家都会的语言，便于各民族交往，使生活更加方便，这就是国家通用语言文字，加强国家通用语文的推广、使用，我们国家也是有法律的。再比如，达赖喇嘛反对汉族人到西藏去，认为这改变了西藏民族的构成。而中国第二代领导人邓小平说过，西藏地方大得很，单靠二百万藏族同胞去建设是不够的，汉人去帮助他们建设没有什么坏处。我们当然赞成邓小平的话，反对达赖喇嘛的话。达赖喇嘛甚至提出要把在西藏工作的汉人全部赶出去。如果按达赖喇嘛说的那样办，对于我们这样一个多民族国家来说，无疑是一场巨大的灾难。
记者：在这个问题上，我有不同意见。您提到的那份文件，我仔细阅读过，也看过您在记者招待会上的回应，这份文件就在我的包里。他的主张不是要把汉人和其他民族成份的人从西藏驱逐出去，他的主张是在未来不要大规模的向西藏移民。
朱维群：我所指的是1987年达赖喇嘛在美国国会散布的关于“西藏问题”的五点方案，其中有一条原话我可以念给您：“西藏人这个人种若要求生存，必定要使人口转移停止，并使移民入藏的汉人回到中国。”这句话毫无疑问就是要把进入西藏的汉族驱赶出去。
记者：而最后一轮谈判的备忘录是2008年！
朱维群：我明白您指的是2008年达赖喇嘛给我们的一个关于藏人“高度自治”的解释。在这个备忘录里达赖并没有收回他在“五点建议”中关于驱赶汉人的话，无非是对他说过话做了一番抵赖。
记者：他这里有一句话说：我们的目的不是驱逐那些长期定居在西藏的人，不是把这些人赶出去、是降低大规模向西藏移民。
朱维群：请您注意无论在哪个版本中，达赖喇嘛从来没有表示收回“要使移民入藏的汉人回到中国”这句话。无论过去还是现在，西藏都是中国领土的一部分，中国的公民有权利在自己的国土上自由地迁移、生活，这是文明、民主国家的必然要求，达赖喇嘛无权剥夺中国公民进入西藏的权利。
记者：那么，每个中国人都可以到香港定居吗？
朱维群：众所周知，香港是中国的一个特别行政区，实行“一国两制”，它的人口问题在“一国两制”框架下安排，与西藏情况有很大区别。在市场经济的条件下，其他省份的人到西藏去帮助建设、去谋生，合理合法，没有任何理由以“民族身份”为标准进行限制。实际上西藏人口的民族结构并没有发生大的改变，现在藏族仍然占总人口的90%以上。西藏的经济社会之所以能够快速发展，百姓生活能迅速改善，不是西藏自我封闭的结果，而是全国人民互相帮助、交流的结果。
记者：我本人与西藏方面有过私人接触，而且也认识与您谈判的代表，也见过达赖喇嘛，我并不赞成他所有观点，比如“大藏区”的观点。但从他的备忘录中我看不出他是个分裂分子。您在后来的记者招待会上，指责达赖喇嘛是个分裂分子，我非常惊讶中国中央政府和西藏方面的态度相差这么大，如同两个世界一样。
朱维群：我首先纠正您的一个说法：您把达赖喇嘛方面说成是“西藏方面”，而达赖喇嘛并不是“西藏方面”，代表西藏的是中国中央政府领导下的西藏自治区人民政府，而达赖集团是一个叛国集团。关于达赖在美国国会的“五点方案”和法国斯特拉斯堡“七点新建议”，我和您一样，进行过认真研究，如果我们逐条辩驳，今天这个讨论将相当冗长。您强调达赖并没有分裂的企图，我这里只引用一下他最近的一些话。2010年10月16日，达赖喇嘛接受加拿大媒体采访时说，“很多藏人现在有这样一种看法：全体藏人都想独立，只有我不想独立。当然你如果问我，想独立还是留在中国之内？回答很明显，我们想独立”。2012年3月25日，达赖喇嘛的新闻网报道，达赖喇嘛同所谓的“民运”分子谈话时说，“西藏从历史上讲是有权利争取独立的，这是一个权利，我讲的中间道路是面对现在的困境，如何去解决这个困境的方式，西藏独立是有他的根据和道理的”。2011年的2月11日，《印度时报》报道，达赖喇嘛在印度发表演讲甚至鼓吹，“印度比中国更有理由声称对西藏拥有主权”，此类的话他讲过许多次。2011年6月9日，达赖集团伪政府头目洛桑孙根对印度《对话》杂志说，“西藏独立和西藏自治的观点并不矛盾，从辩证角度看，西藏独立是原则目标，西藏自治是现实目标”。达赖喇嘛和洛桑孙根把“中间道路”和“西藏独立”之间的关系说得非常清楚。我对这种言论多次在报刊上提出批评，他们没有做出任何解释。类似这样的言论我可以列举许多。尤其是洛桑孙根说“西藏独立”是原则目标，“西藏自治”是现实目标，把达赖喇嘛的心思讲得太清楚了，政治上非常不高明，对达赖喇嘛的破坏性太大。达赖喇嘛、洛桑孙根这样的言论，怎么能使中国中央政府对他们建立信任呢？我顺便再讲一个相关的问题，我们和达赖喇嘛私人代表10年之间有过10次接触，为什么现在不能接触了？因为洛桑孙根说今后的接触商谈是“流亡政府”和中国政府之间谈。达赖喇嘛也多次讲过，今后接谈的事情由洛桑孙根来负责，也就是说让中国中央政府与分裂主义的伪政府接谈。这个问题的本质在于，达赖喇嘛和洛桑孙根企图使我们从接谈一开始就事实上承认伪政府的合法性。这样的条件中央政府绝对不可能答应，所以接谈根本无法进行。
记者：我认识和您谈判的代表，他们不谈是因为目前情况下谈判没有意义，他们从来没有说过以西藏“流亡政府”的身份谈判。我知道您要求谈判对方写一个关于他们的要求的报告，他们也写了。您既然不准备接受对方的观点，为什么还要同他谈判呢？
朱维群：第一个问题，您说的“谈判代表”应当是指甲日洛地先生，这位先生确实没说过他代表“流亡政府”和我谈，他说他代表达赖喇嘛本人，正因为如此，我们才能谈下去。但现在达赖集团的当政者洛桑孙根则反复说今后的接谈是“流亡政府”和中国中央政府的谈判，从而把接谈的基础完全破坏了。据我所知，甲日洛地先生对洛桑孙根的态度实际是不满意的。尽管甲日洛地先生和我的观点不一致，但我很尊重他，他实际上是被洛桑孙根等人从接谈代表位置上赶走的。第二个问题，我们之所以在前一阶段多次同达赖喇嘛的私人代表谈，是因为达赖喇嘛历史上曾为国家做过积极的事，我指的是西藏和平解放，签订十七条协定，那时他是西藏地方的政治决策者。达赖喇嘛的宗教身份是中国中央政府认定的，我和他的私人代表谈，实际上也是对历史传统的尊重。从上个世纪改革开放开始，中国中央政府就派人与达赖喇嘛建立联系，多次邀请他派人组成参观团，到西藏参观。我们的目标只有一个，争取他停止分裂活动，回到爱国的正确的立场上来，而不是同他讨论什么“西藏问题”。
记者：他很早就放弃了分裂活动。
朱维群：不，那是您的看法。他们所说的“中间道路”本质上就是“西藏独立”。刚才我已经说明白了。所谓要求他们写材料，事实是我曾反复同甲日洛地先生讲：你们所提出的这些要求，中央是不会和你们谈的；但如果你们有意改变立场，你们可以表述清楚一点，以便我们判定你们是否在向中央靠拢。意思很清楚：第一我不和你们谈“西藏政治地位”之类的东西；第二，我可以看一看你们是否改变了立场。从最后我们拿到的东西看，他们没有改变立场。
记者：您可不可以这样设想：谈判双方都要尊重对方不同的观点。“藏方”代表这样认为，如果您的目的只是检查对方是否与您意见相同的话，这样的谈判是没有意义的。
朱维群：我们不叫“谈判”，叫“接触商谈”。这涉及接谈的性质问题。比如，我和您谈话，我们是平等的关系，但达赖集团是1959年发动武装叛乱失败后，逃亡到国外，宣布成立“西藏独立国”，搞了自己的伪宪法、伪政府、伪议会，他是一个叛乱集团，中国中央政府不可能同他在一个平等的位置上谈话。1964年国务院全体会议通过关于撤销达赖喇嘛职务的决定，其中讲到达赖问题的性质：达赖在其1959发动的叛国的反革命武装叛乱，逃往国外后，组织流亡伪政府，颁布伪宪法，这一切证明，他早已自绝于祖国和人民。因此我们的接谈，目的就是要他承认错误，改正错误，求得中央政府和全国人民的谅解，而不是同他就其分裂祖国的主张进行什么平等的“谈判”，不存在这样的关系。我和甲日洛地先生在个人方面平等，但是在接谈时，我作为中央政府派出的人员，他作为达赖的私人代表，我只能采取非常严厉的态度。
记者：那就是说你们之间的谈话是没有意义的，未来也不会进行谈话。
朱维群：我不认为是没有意义的。意义就在于我们把中央的看法和要求通过他们直接传给达赖喇嘛。
记者：这是单行线。
朱维群：当然，我也要听听达赖喇嘛对中央对他的批评采取什么样的态度，改还是不改。接触商谈的门我们并没有关上，但是原则仍是这个原则。一些外国朋友没有想明白，症结就在于没有搞清我们和达赖喇嘛集团斗争的性质是什么。把这个搞清楚了，其他问题也就明白了。
记者：我努力了解商谈的性质，我也了解双方的态度，如果是这样的话，谈判是没有结果的。我认为达赖喇嘛是一个比较理性的谈判伙伴，如果有一天他不在了，我认为谈判会更加困难，这样也不符合中国利益。
朱维群：对达赖集团的斗争是我们实现西藏发展和改善民生的一个重要条件，因为有这么一个分裂主义集团在国外活动，势必对我们产生干扰，因此对这个集团的动向我们会密切关注。我们希望达赖喇嘛在他的有生之年做出正确的选择，从分裂主义的立场上走出来，但是如果他坚持分裂主义的立场，我们也没办法。一个基本的事实是，西藏的命运和前途掌握在包括西藏人民在内的全体中国人民手中，并不是掌握在达赖集团那帮人手中。我希望达赖长寿，希望他活到他预定的113岁。如果他“走了”以后一些人试图用暴力恐怖的手段和我们较量，也没什么了不起，历史已经证明，这种较量他们从来就没有赢过。而且在今天世界的大环境下，谁要是搞暴力恐怖，就等于政治上的自杀。
非常感谢您今天这么耐心听我讲了这么多的话，您是我迄今所见到的外国记者当中对这个问题掌握材料最多的一个。最后我再送您一个小资料。可能您见过这张地图，这是2010年再版的达赖喇嘛自传《流亡中的自在》的附图。您认为任何一个中国人看了这幅地图，对达赖喇嘛能产生好感吗？
记者：在“大藏区”这一点上我和您的意见是一致的，我也认为他们要求太多了。
朱维群：请您注意，他所要求的不仅是“大藏区”，他在这张地图中把我国新疆标注为“东土耳其斯坦”，把内蒙古标注为单独一个国家，把我们的东北三省标注为“满洲国”，如此等等。
记者：这就不现实了。
赞